Ian Hart interview Malin Uthaug for his book “Healing Hackers” which is all about natural healing techniques and hacks for recovery fast and performance max. He interviews healing hackers who give their most valuable techniques to stimulate the healing process in the body. You can learn more about it when you read the book “healing hackers”. Malin Uthaug is a Ph.D. candidate at Maastricht University and based out of Prague. She shares her experience how she got involved studying psychedelics and her personal experiences, interest and research with ayahuasca and 5-MeO-DMT. Malin is currently working on a research study examining the potential influence that the ritual and ceremony may have on the overall ayahuasca experience.

(00:00)

I’m going to start this off like a regular interview, but I want you to, I don’t want you to be affected by this kind of like we were talking out there. Yeah. So, all right. So I’m here with Malin Uthaug, she’s originally from Norway and then she came to Prague where we at right now. And she originally went to get her BA in empire state university. Right. Which is a part of NYU. And then you went to Maastricht University. How do you pronounce that?

Maastricht University

Yeah.

That correction. Like I went to university in New York, in Prague, which is part of Empire State College.

Gotcha. Sorry. Yeah.

It’s all good…

Yeah, it’s good to clarify those things. And now you’re back in Prague and you’re currently getting your phd.

Yeah

And you’re getting your phd specifically in the focus of Ayahuasca and 5-meo-DMT.

Yes.

All right. So, awesome. Is there anything like just off the bat that you kind of want to preface, like how you got into this and then just explain a little bit about your story and background?

(1:11)

Yeah, so as we spoke about earlier, like, and also what I’ve spoken about another other interviews like this is that where I’m at today is because of what I’ve been through before and so the past four to five years has been very tough and I’ve basically come to focus on healing a very traumatic experience that I had in Jordan a few years ago. And so I ended up here listening to talk about Ayahuasca and then I got in contact with one of my best friends and now in Colombia and she helped me a lot with that. And I had my first session with Ayahuasca and so that’s sort of like started everything.

Okay

So from then, everything just sort of like, yeah…

So you would call it, you basically had PTSD from a traumatic event and you did the Ayahuasca that released the trauma…

Part of it.

Part of it. Did you, do you feel like you got it fully released or is it still there?

Uh Huh. So I think like there, it depends on what you mean by still there like, of course the memory of that experience is there, but the question is, does it affect me in the same way? Right. The answer is no. Not In that deep and anxiety provoking way. Of course, sometimes I think about it. And I was like, okay, now that happened but I think my relationship to the event has changed and so has my response to it.

Yeah. Now I, so I heard you share about that and there’s this quote that always comes up to with me, and I shared this about my story recently when I was at the Wim Hof certification and it’s a rumi quote and it’s, the wound is where the light enters you, right? Because you look and many people, what they do is it becomes a victim, right? Which is like, oh, this happened to me, poor me, and blah, blah, blah. But now you’re looking at that event as actually the catalyst for where your life is now. So it’s actually, there’s some gratitude towards that event.

Yes… for sure

Yeah.

(3:42)

Yeah. And I think it’s important to get to that point because I think I spend too much time marinating myself and my own pity, you know? And just that, that was also the only thing that I knew. Yeah. And so finding another way was scary because it’s unknown to me and automatically like humans are scared of the dark because we don’t know what is in there. Not an unknown space. Yeah. And so similarly when you are embarking on this journey of healing is terrifying because you’re so like secure in that space. You are at this point, even though I might not be what’s best for you. And so trying to figure out like, okay, I’m going to go to a different place and it terrifies me. It takes a lot of courage to do that. And I’m really proud of anyone who is able to just embark on that journey and just trust that process. Yeah. And I think what…

Kind of confront what’s in like in the recesses of your mind kind of…

Exactly

Okay… Yeah… So I had a question about… That’s the thing that kind of sparked me back there. Have you ever studied dissociation at all?

It’s become too, yeah. It’s come to me at this point in time and I’m studying more and more about it. Yeah. I’m really interested in it.

Okay. Cause that’s kind of like, so I would say there’s people with PTSD who know they have it. And then there’s also people who have like, like the mind is like a honeycomb where you can actually break off and have certain memories. Right. And like you don’t even know it’s there. Would you say that ayahuasca, because of the neuro kind of reset, it opens up that pathway that has maybe been blocked?

(5:49)

I think like it’s a catalyst for opening up those memories. And the way it does that could be related to this, it can take you to this place perhaps, maybe not entirely. This dissociative state, which I think another medicine can do better. And I mean 5-meo-DMT. But I think it is, it is opening that, that door and you get to look into, okay, what is there. You know, and, and that is effective because you get to look at what you need to work on what’s the problem. And then having done that, for example, in a therapeutic session where you actively engaging in a conversation with the therapist about what is there could be helpful. But as of now, I do not know whether ayahuasca is the best medicine…

For that situation…

Yes. I think it could help. Perhaps it could be a step to be like, okay… let’s look, what is it in your baggage that you’re carrying that is so heavy? And so perhaps ayahuasca could be able to give you a peek into that. And then from there you could figure out, okay, this is what we need to work on and then move on to different medicine.

(7:12)

Okay… So this is a good subject and this is a perfect line to talk. So what would you say ayahuasca’s best purposes for in terms of healing? Like if someone is saying like, “Oh, I’m looking at psychedelics.” It’s like I know for example, ibogaine as like I think it’s like a 90% recovery rate or 85% with like heroin addiction or something, something like that. So like that’s probably better than ayahuasca right. And are you familiar with like have you studied the ibogaine at all?

(7:47)

No, not as much as I’ve done with other medicines. Like no, it’s mainly the ayahuasca , 5-meo or Mescaline. But as with dissociation, ibogaine has come to my intention to and so I’m starting to look more into other things like that.

Okay, cool. So with ayahuasca, what would it be based on your research, what would you recommend ayahuasca for? Like what healing purposes?

So from what I found in my own research is that it relieves symptoms of depression, anxiety and stress. It can increase mindfulness related capacities which are important. And like for example, awareness…

Creativity?

Creativity and that is also very important because for example, a person with post traumatic stress disorder tends to just focus on their problem inside this box. And so what my colleague found is that during the influence of ayahuasca, your divergent thinking abilities are increased.

So that is interesting because it allows you to start thinking outside of the box, away from that problem.

Okay gotcha. So just so yeah, like divert, I read that in there, divergent thinking. So basically you start to be more open essentially.

Yes

A different thought processes.

Yeah. And so like it’s different from convergent thinking. You can think of converted thinking as with math problems. Like there’s only one solution. And so someone with the pressure of post traumatic stresses or is just banging their head against a wall trying to solve that problem with only one way. And perhaps that way is what they learned in their past. Like, okay, their parents taught them one way to deal with shit that happened but it’s not working. And so then perhaps you get a new perspective from that ayahuasca trip. And you also have now this increased divergent thinking. And so you can look at things from a different angle and perhaps come up with a better way of tackling the problem.

I got you. Okay, so that’s why you’re saying basically ayahuasca could be the dope, like opening the door, taking the peek in and then now you’re like, ah, okay, now I see different ways that I can deal with this or other approaches that I might be able to do, but it won’t actually release the trauma.

(10:29)

I don’t, I don’t think maybe for some people like it induces this powerful and trauma release, but as I’ve said before, I think maybe in my personal opinion and also experience, I feel that five-meo might be better for that. But I would love to see a comparison of like type of what medicine would release most trauma. But still like there isn’t anything out there. I think it’s just like mainly both the effects that we see. And so I think they like that it can enhance your mindfulness related capacities is also important because when you gain awareness, you might be able to stop before let’s say an outburst or explosion because of the emotional overload. And so you gain more awareness as you approach that peek. And so you might be able to stop it because of your awareness here. Another thing is that of course it could elevate or like decrease depression, stress and anxiety symptoms, which is great. You know, and so when that is decreased, your awareness is enhanced. You know, it’s, it’s a nice little mix.

See this is directly, I start connecting the dots. Like we were talking about David Hawkins before. David Hawkins says these two pictures of like left brain dominant and right brain dominant and like the like kind of the neuroscience and the track of the brain and like what neuro receptors are… shoot, what’s the word I’m looking for? A neurotransmitters are being used and like the track to the emotions. And so would you think that it blends the two brains better? Cause it neuro resets or does it open up the right brain more?

Well I think maybe will open up the right brain a little bit more. I think what I see from people’s report after I was called, there was a lot of childhood memories coming up and I read in the book like a return to the brain of Eden, which I just showed you and there’s a lot of talk about that and the right brain contains those memories from childhood. So if you think of it in that way, it makes sense that that it opens up that gate or like the door into your right brain. So then you could see what is in there. And then take it from there.

(13:05)

That’s amazing. So this is like, this is off topic and not reall… But this is the crazy question that I’m going to ask you. Have you ever heard of like ritual abuse?

No. Or like in the shamanic or the ceremonies…

It’s like… Have you ever heard like MK ultra?

No…

(13:20)

Okay. So, I mean, I’ll just explain it to you, but you might have it that at the concept of it. But this is like powerful for me as I haven’t read about the memories being stored in the right brain. But that makes sense. Basically. Um, you know, like MK Ultra is the CIA program where they program someone like Jason Bourne but the idea is from what I’ve read is like they have a whole system of how they do it and they basically can create somebody into whatever they want assassins, sex slave and like they can trigger it by using words. So what they do is create that like pocket of honeycomb personality or they create dissociation and that dissociation personality doesn’t even know it exists. And so if someone had that and then they did ayahuasca would it be like, oh my God, here’s the set person I like but all of a sudden like…

Perhaps it could gain a good tap into that. Like, you know, like there might be some parts of you that you’re not aware of, you know, like it could perhaps do that. And it’s an interesting thought experiment. Yeah. And I love to explore that further, so, Huh…

(14:39)

Yeah. So that, that, because I mean that goes deep down the rabbit hole. But, and sometimes we get caught up in that stuff and I study, I like to study the trauma and the brain and it’s just amazing to me that there’s people out there that like could be triggered into being a sex slave and not really even know it. And then they’d go back to their life and they’re just like this. And that there’s people out there that the like governments or whatever using or anybody’s using at that capacity, which, um, I just think the psychedelics have the ability to…  flush that out. I guess like get rid of it. But back to the topic. Um, so ayahuasca is good for divergent thinking, it’s good for taking a peek in to kind of maybe see what’s going on in the recesses of your mind. And now five meo that specifically for healing would be better for like a traumatic experience?

I think in my opinion, I feel like 5-meo is as a great medicine to use to bring you into a certain point of this, like the dissociative state. I think what I probably should have emphasized earlier is that they’re probably all doing that, the psychedelics, but some do it better and faster. And so I think with ayahuasca, because you have the, the ego might still be there. Yeah. You have the ability to steer the journey but 5-meo there is no way to resist and I think that’s the thing…

The ego just disappears…

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

And because it’s so fast, there is no way, like you can just like cling on to, to reality that easily. Right. And I think that’s why it’s better. But of course it’s finding that sweet spot, because too much 5-meo is just another traumatic event, it could lead to more dissociation. And so I think finding that sweet spot where you are not completely dissociated. So like… one foot here and one foot there and then work with the therapist and sort of like find a way to release…

(17:06)

Yeah, so that’s a good question actually. So you know the concept of Hermesis, which is like the dosage that is the right amount for the stress response. It’s like if you get too much it’s not good. And then too little, there is no stimulus but like the right amount. So for example, like the Wim Hof method actually, like they’ve done studies. Actually, I don’t know if they’ve done studies on that, but the original guy who was up for like a Nobel prize was this scientist named Schultz. And he figured out that if you sprayed pesticides on yeast like a lot of it, the yeast would die. If you sprayed just a little bit, the yeast would grow up. And so, that when I’m looking at like, microdosing ‘shrooms, that’s what I kind of see is like, just like enough. So do we know what the like per… Everybody’s different, do we know like what’s the right amount? Do we know? Like if someone’s really big, do they need a lot more ayahuasca?

Yeah, yeah… that’s also another, another question for further investigations. Like you need a lot of dose testing, safety measure, and effectiveness, you know, and so I don’t think there is such a dose, like one size fits all or like one dose fits all. I think it all depends on a lot of different factors. And you also have this and send them your liver that is responsible for drug metabolism. And so that is different from for people to people. And so some person might have a slow metabolism. And so other might be faster. So there’s a lot of things into play and of course like it’s not only bad enzyme or like, and so also psychologically like how much resistance is in there, how much readiness for change or willingness to change is there. There’s a lot of these things as well and it’s hard to make, to pinpoint exactly. So we need more research for that as well.

Cool. That leads me to the next question, which is what do you believe the future of psychedelics will be like now? You know, like how many people are doing phd in this? because I don’t like are there any other people that are doing this?

(19:41)

Well, my calling Natasha Mason, she’s doing her phd now and well, mostly focusing on psilocybin and so she’s very focused on creativity looking into that and also empathy. And we’re both in the same track. We’ve got the same supervisor. So she’s doing that and I’m doing this. I know. I’m personally in Czech Republic, […] is also working within this. I’m not sure if she’s doing her phd, but there’s a lot of people who wants to jump on this wagon, you know, and they want to contribute. And that’s amazing because cannot do it all by herself.

All right. Yeah. You need a strong community.

Yeah and there’s already like a lot of great resource or like people to look up to. You have Amanda Feilding, Rick Doblin and like Dave Nichols, all of that. And people that are not phd students like Rafael Lancelotta, like he’s a great addition as well. So yeah.

So… yeah, just on psilocybin the microdosing has changed my life. I mean, I do sometimes more than microdose for different experiences, but it really adds, like, I had probably neuro degeneration and whatever’s going on and it’s just unbelievable the impact it’s had on the expanding and opening and clearing stuff out of my head and I literally, I have this weird thing that happens. Like I can literally feel like the frequency and vibration of like food because of whatever happened to me when I got sick. And so I could feel the healing happening with the psilocybin. And, um, I, I read, I don’t know if it’s a paper, an article recently, but it said, so like if someone has a traumatic event or they have had depression, like the neuro pathways can kind of shrivel up, right or like I guess did, I don’t know if it’s degenerate, but kind of like shrivel up. And psilocybin actually opens them up and expands them more, is that kind of what happens or are you familiar with that?

(22:05)

It could be like, I’m not too familiar with psilocybin and do research and all of that, so I, I don’t want to say something that is inaccurate, yeah. So it could be, yeah. Even with the, I guess it was (22:19m) me, or like it… I guess it create, I don’t know if I’m, if I’m understanding it correctly, or if I’m remembering correctly, but it could help to give birth to more neurons and what I need to check that… I don’t know if I remember correctly or I’m just adding it to it, but I’ll check and I’ll send you that paper.

From what I’ve read I remember hearing that about psilocybin.

Okay. Well I think they’re all doing similar things…

Something like that…

Yeah. So it would make sense that it would also do that.

Yeah. It’s like a neuro regeneration.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

So is there anything, so I just kind of want to, like if someone, the book is Healing Hacks, I don’t even know if I’m going to call it that yet. I’m going to… test out the title, which is most appealing to people, but, so if someone’s like I need to heal and it was ayahuasca or five meo or anything else that you might, you’d studied ketamine as well? A little bit?

No…

Just those two?

Yeah, most ayahuasca and five.

Okay, and who would be good candidates for that type of stuff? Right. You can’t have have like schizophrenic passed, right?

No, it’s very tricky and I, I think that either way the treatment needs to be very carefully done a matter of who the person is but there are of course more dangerous with or like more contraindications with people like that how schizophrenia and so on.

It’s a friendly or is it any mental illness?

I guess mostly that and perhaps other forms of trauma. Like there’s a lot of contraindications in that too and it’s very tricky because like those are the people that also need it the most. But I guess that contraindication of previous trauma, it’s just something that has been coming up lately when working with or like attending these ceremonies with the underground facilitators because there is no clinical background there and so the screening might not be done correctly and might add more additional trauma to the person because there is no, like I said, no clinical background if they don’t know how to handle trauma. They might just make you worse. And so that’s why I felt like somebody who’s traumatize shouldn’t be going to these facilitators because it might just get worse.


Yeah and there’s a whole process in preparation. And that was another question I had. I know you were studying the actual effects of the ceremony, right?

Yeah

Is that still being studied?

From the 5-meo?

Was that 5-meo or was that ayahuasca?

(25:26)

So mainly right now I finalized the field study, which is basically observational study. So what I did is, I went to the ceremonies and I distributed questionnaires to people there. I just wrapped up a data collection studying ayahuasca but then I mainly giving, I’m trying to figure out if it’s the effect of the drug but it’s ayahuasca or the set and like the setting. So I’m still to do the analysis of that and to write up the paper. But it’s very interesting because from that experience, like talking to the people, cause they didn’t know if they got placebo or ayahuasca. So I would sit down the next time, hey, how are you doing? And like what, how was your night? And some people were like, oh, I had this amazing time and I learned this and this and this, and I had these amazing visions. And I’m like, that’s interesting because you were in the placebo group, you know? And they’re like, what? So they were like, oh shit…

That’s amazing…

But it’s really great that we managed to pull this off because like it is still observational by nature. And so we made an agreement with the facilitators that could, we like separate the groups like to give some ayahuasca and some placebo and they were up with that. So they made us feel a part of their curriculum or whatever that they were doing some trainings and stuff like that. It was really interesting.

Wow. Yeah, that boggles my mind. Power of the mind boggles my mind. It’s just…

Yeah

It really like belief is actually the creation of everything. It’s like, you know, I mean, obviously there’s other stimulants that can bring it out, but so can you just explain how like the chemical process of what ayahuasca does, do you do, you know, kind of like, is it the Serotonin neurotransmitter going to be taken up more?

So my field is not focused entirely on neurochemistry. So the only thing I know is that it acts in serotonin receptor. And, uh, that’s pretty much it. And just because I’m so much focus more on the behavior on the behavioral outcomes of that. So I’m, I am not entirely secure and your own chemistry so…

And expanding on that.

Yeah

Okay.

That’s fine. Like it’s not my strongest.

Yeah. No, that’s fine. So… What would you say, have you spoken to a lot of people that have done ayahuasca?

Yes

So do you have examples of like the impact that it’s had on people’s lives? I mean, I know it’s impacted you, but do you have maybe a story or two that somebody even just like…

(28:33)

Yeah. One of the first people that comes to mind is, one person that I interviewed when I was in Columbia. Because he was also in Bogota a couple of days after the experience. Okay. And so we met there and we were talking and he was like, I would love to have a conversation with you because this is not the, the first time I had it, you know? And so, he started telling me about how he took ayahuasca and was confronted with his creativity. And so like creativity was like these little minions, I don’t know if it was like an Oompa Loompa or if I’m mixing my own interpretation of this, but…

I’ve heard that people say that before too.

Yeah.

Like little beings or whatever.

Yeah. And so like, these little beings represented his creativity and they were like, you’re not giving us enough attention. And so similarly, as we talked about earlier, with the right brain and left brain, right brain is deprived, you know, it needs that nourishment of creativity out first, you know, like, and so he was like, Oh shit, I’m so sorry, little guy, but I’ll, I’ll do it better. And so that was, that was pretty cool. And others that I met have just felt like that a lot of stuff was released from them. Like purging things. Um, Yvonne, my, my best friend in Columbia who helped me a lot also find her way through the use of ayahuasca. She realized that we are all one and she had to let go of this, these things that didn’t really bring her forward. And so there was a lot of insecurities in regards to her self esteem and all of that, but she gained more self confidence and power to push forward with that.

Okay. Yeah, I mean I just hear repeatedly, like it just changes people’s lives. So I know, I know you’ve got somewhere to be here soon, so, yeah, I want to… I don’t want to keep you too long, but there’s like a few other questions. And I don’t think you… Did you answer like where, where you believe ayahuasca and five-meo I’m going to go into, I think I asked you that maybe we got off on a tangent.

Maybe we didn’t I have no, I did not answer that. And so I think it’s a very interesting time because more and more things are happening, and more and more people are jumping on, on this topic and that is good. But there is also some things that we need to be wary about. Like for me, it’s important that things don’t get, like these medicines do not get only approved for a certain amount of people that it becomes available for many, you know, and so then it’s not going to cost a shit ton of money. Right. And stuff like that. And so I hope that this whole thing of legalization could be done in a nice, and correct way where there is no ego involved where there’s no people trying to get profit out of that because there’s enough of that already with all the underground facilitators with the underground retreats. And so I would like to see a shift from that, but that requires awareness from not only the consumers but also the researchers. Like what do I contribute to with my work.

Right. Keep going. I’m just going to pick a note.

And so I hope that we’re able to do this in a good way and I hope eventually these medicines could become available for treatments.

(32:45)

Right. Like real. Basically like a psycho therapist would be now, like people go to the psycho therapist and go to like a clinic and do an ayahuasca with maybe a facilitator right. To release. So, uh, what about the preparation for that? Right. Isn’t there like a diet you have to follow and a lot of things. So this is not something that is just like, oh yeah, I’m going to go do ayahuasca today.

The thing that many people have, like it’s become so mainstream and that’s really upsetting because it’s, it’s not fun stuff. And you see people are chasing it, chasing this ego, the solution. That is like that’s what people are craving now. And so it shouldn’t be about that ego the solution because it doesn’t fix things. It’s interesting to see that people who chase that just end up increasing their ego even further. And so it just does the opposite of what I feel that it should be doing to make you humble and more present and aware and all of that. But when you turn into egocentric bastard, then that’s not really helpful… I don’t know how much I can swear…

(34:09)

Have you ever saw, I just came from the Wim Hof certification if you saw what that was… have you ever seen Wim?

Uh, no. No.

His main thing is like breathe mother fuckers, just breathe mother fuckers. Like that’s what he said. So it’s like he has t shirts of it and so whole community is kind of like that.

That’s great.

Yeah. Okay so… you were saying basically about people are exploiting it or can exploit it. So if someone wanted to do it and they stopped, okay, this is probably good avenue for me to use the medication or the medicine. How would they go about doing? Cause now like it’s illegal in certain places and I still, like I said, I know doctors and I know like very high influencers who are doing this stuff and it’s kind of like ridiculous and you know that it is illegal. I mean, there’s gotta be precautions, but people should have the ability to use it. It’s, I’m like, I’m totally open to all drugs being like legalized, especially plants that come from the earth. I mean, so what, what should that person do? Like how should they take steps to use ayahuasca or 5-meo?

No, that is not legal yet… So like how can they use this safely through some of the underground…

Right. Yeah

I think in regards to, well, both ayahuasca and 5-meo, there needs to be, an intention. Like why are you doing this? It should be the first question. So like, say now the person is not in for it for the fun, but is actually committed to the healing. Right. And that’s it. That’s great. Sure. Next step is finding somebody who could help you for this process. Right. And so then finding a facilitator competent enough to help you with that is also crucial to have a successful start of the healing. Yeah. You know, and so it’s important to like into okay. What background does this person have? What are they doing? How did they get into this? and how are the sessions run? You know, like all of these things are, there’s like a huge checklist of what facilitators do you pick and it’s very hard to navigate that because, you might also feel that, okay, this person sounds good and great and it fits for me, but then later on you realize it’s a bad choice. So there’s a lot of that too. And I think there are many checklists online that are like listing all of these questions that are important to look into. But say, you know, found the facilitator and as a good match, then you have your experience, what now. Integration is probably more important than the experience itself and basically and so I think that you’ve had the experience and you probably learned some from it. In my opinion. I love writing stuff down, like trying to get a perspective.

But it’s important that you have support around you because the facilitator might not be around, you know, he might be traveling or she might be traveling. And so you need to have a supporting network and maybe even a therapist available who ideally should have a little bit of knowledge about altered states of consciousness, even dissociation, whatever the problem is that you are trying to heal should be some background in that and also altered states of consciousness and then find a way to work on what you learned through that therapy. And just integrate things into your life. Start doing things differently than might not have been productive before. So apply it to your life. And I think from then on like that, that’s, that’s a great, those are great things to think about.

Yeah. Okay. Um, so you know, how people talk about shamans like based on your opinion, is going to a shaman that has like the bloodline of like connected to the indigenous people of like Columbia, Peru, a better option for some people or is it really just based on feeling kind of thing?

I think I would go with somebody who, well, not strictly like just like clean bloodline, but that it shouldn’t just be a person who had the experience itself themselves and then decided like, oh, I want to be a facilitator. You know, so there needs to be a certain amount of knowledge and experience. Yes and one experience is not enough because it’s like most of the facilitators, especially with 5-meo like you see more and more of them popping up, but it’s like, okay, did they have the experience and now they want to share that with everybody. And it’s like the medicine called me. It’s like, dammit…

Okay. Yeah, I mean, I can go on and on. Is there any lack kind of last thoughts, like someone’s reading this book that was perfect. What you’re saying is like, okay, think about how you want to do this. Like find a good facilitator and then probably somebody who knows how to integrate you and coach you back to reality I guess. Right?

Yeah. Or like I don’t think even like coming back to reality might be around what you’re saying because that suggest that perhaps you became the… result of it, which might happen, but it might not be always the case. But I think definitely having that supportive network is very important…

Crucial.

Yeah. Cause you end up in a very fragile and vulnerable place. So depending on, on the, the medicine, you know, for me 5-meo was very harsh because it made me question so many things and intensified so many of those questions that I had.

(40:27)

But like, maybe it’s good to say that you weren’t, you had no idea what you were getting into it right? From the side, like, oh you’re going to do five, cause I have another friend that did that. Yeah, he told me about it. He said, ah, just did five meo and he’s another Wim Hof instructor actually. He said he was going on a trip with some people and there he was like, Hey, are you ready to do the 5-meo he was like, what are you talking about? And then they showed up. Next thing you know, he’s taking it and he wasn’t really ready for it, but he’s a tough guy. So he wasn’t like mentally tough, I would say. And he seem like it was totally fine when he said yeah, it was, he thought he was gonna die.

Yeah. Like for me, like as I told you before, I was just like thrown into it. But also it was not easy for me to say no because I really wanted to know it as well. And I concurred with what the facilitator said, like, this is the only way you’re going to know. And I’m like, yeah, yeah. But I was terrified. I was like, shoot, I’m not prepared. Like, oh my God. And so afterwards I…

Did you take a second hit, by the way?

No…

Like for some reason I’ve heard like you take the hit and then you can wait a little bit and then take more or something like that.

(41:37)

Uh no… I think the facilitator like this was toward secretion and so I think there was around a hundred, 120 and really […]. I don’t know for sure, but that was pretty much the average and so I was gone within a matter of seconds. So I don’t think I needed any more, but I think I had too much.

Okay. And how long were you gone for?

I think being tired duration was around 15 minutes.

Cool. Well, we’ll end it there. Oh, sorry, I ran over a little bit.

It’s all good.

Yeah. So I thank you. I’m super grateful to have connected with you and I’d love to stay connected with you and I’m going to try and connect you with some people if that’s okay with you.

Wonderful. I’d love to stay connected to and if there is anything that you need help with, like if you need papers, articles, references. I’ll help

Oh, great. Awesome. Yeah. And that might be good for the book itself.

Yeah, the questions that you have of, of things, just shoot me a message.

Awesome. Thank you, Malin.

Thank you.

And we’ll end it there…


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